20 Questions (and then some) for Grace
August 4, 2008 by DH
Filed under Mormoncopia
Similar in fashion to Robert Millet and Greg Johnson or even Stephen Robinson and Craig Blomberg, (But on a much smaller scale!) I have had the privilege of having an on-going and extended conversation with some Evangelical friends who firmly believe that we are saved by grace alone. It is crystal clear in my mind that works (such as baptism) are necessary for salvation in addition to the grace that Christ offers us. For them, it is exclusively by the grace of Christ that we are saved. In a non-combative way we have discussed our viewpoints and beliefs and have found it mutually beneficial as we learn of others beliefs and come to understand our own doctrines better. Through our conversations I have formed the following list of questions about the doctrine of being saved by grace alone. I think it would be wise to briefly set forth both sides of beliefs before I list my questions. As a disclaimer, I don’t consider myself an expert in either Evangelical beliefs or my own, but I will attempt to establish the basics nonetheless.
If I have it understood correctly Evangelicals believe that a sincere belief and conversion to the Lord Jesus Christ thus permits them to receive freely from his grace. Furthermore, upon sincerely accepting Christ, one is saved automatically regardless of what may have transpired in the past or what mistakes they may make in the future. One is essentially cleansed instantly by the grace that Christ freely offers us because of his sacrifice and love. This description may not apply to all Evangelicals but it is my understanding as explained to me by my friends.
Mormons on the other hand believe that indeed grace is a gift from a loving Savior, even Jesus Christ, but that this grace will only be offered to those who have done their part in overcoming their carnal nature. A covenant is set up in which Christ promises us a forgiveness of sins and His grace which enables us to live with Him again if we do our part of the covenant. The Gospel of Jesus Christ which consists of faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by immersion, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying of hands, and enduring to the end make up what must be done to receive of his grace and be cleansed from our sins. Contrary to what many say, Mormons do not believe that one can merit His grace (2 Nephi 25:23) as grace is a free gift after all that we can do ourselves. Our efforts do not “earn” us His grace but satisfy His demands after which he freely extends his merciful arms to us and makes up the difference.
The friends with whom I have had the conversation use the New International Version of the Bible while Mormons use the King James Version of the Bible. Throughout our dialogue some of my questions regarding grace were considerably different depending on what Bible you used as a reference point and the wording therein. As such, here is the link for the NIV Bible online and here is the link for the LDS Scriptures online.
If one is saved by “grace alone” then…
Why does Paul mention the importance of works (in addition to his teachings about grace)?
1 Cor 6:9-11
How can we partake of communion/sacrament “unworthily” if grace cleanses us automatically?
1 Cor 11:27-29
Why does Paul write letters at all? As most, if not all, of his letters are to help converts continue in the faith/remain faithful and to encourage them to abandon their sins.
Why is it then possible to fall from grace?
Gal 5:4, Heb 6:4-6, Heb 12:15, 1 Cor 10:12, 1 Cor 9:27, 1 Tim 1:19
Isn’t this also implicitly referred to in 1 Thessalonians 3:5-7 as Paul is worried his converts will be tempted by the devil and led astray?
Why does Paul teach the importance of charity if it doesn’t matter what we do once we believe and are saved?
1 Corinthians 13
Similarly does he not divide the sheep and goats (Matt. Ch. 25) by what they have done?
What of the final judgment and the many references that say we will be judged by our deeds, actions or works?
Rev. 20:12-13, Matt 7:23, Matt 16:27, Prov 24:12, Matt 7:21 etc
Similarly is the allegory of the tree that brings forth good fruit and that which brings forth evil fruit. Can that not be symbolic of the judgment and our works and how it will determine if we are hewn down and cast into the fire? (Matt Ch. 7)
Why teach anything (numerous Biblical writers espouse this idea either implicitly or explicitly) related to progression, diligence, patience, advancement, enduring to end/holding out faithful if you are saved instantly or at one moment?
1 Cor 9:25-27, Matt 10:22, 1 Cor 13:7 (Interestingly charity “endureth all things”), Heb 6:12-15, James 1:2-4
Why is there an unpardonable sin(s) if works don’t matter and grace saves regardless?
Matt 12:31, Heb 10:26, Heb 6:4-6
What about Christ’s teaching that if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven?
Matt 6:15
What of those that never hear the gospel during their mortal life? How are they saved by grace if they never hear the gospel let alone believe it?
Why would Christ (and any other for that matter) bother with teaching repentance?
Matt 3:2, Luke 13:3,5; Acts 17:30, Isa 1:16, Ezek 18:30, Mark 6:12, Luke 15:7, Luke 24:47, 2 Cor. 12:21
Similarly, why would he then command the Apostles to teach repentance in the entire world?
Was teaching repentance to the sinners (and thus providing a way back through his Atonement) not Christ’s mission on Earth?
Matt 9:13, Mark 2:17, Luke 5:32
And why does it mention fruits meet for repentance if it is automatic instead of involving a process that includes acknowledgement, godly sorrow, confession restitution, and abandonment?
Matt 3:8, Acts 26:20, Luke 3:8
Does repentance not precede conversion which precedes salvation?
Acts 3:19 and then 2 Cor 7:10
Is not confession and abandonment part of the repentance process?
Prov 28:13, Matt 3:5-6, Ezek 18:30-31, Isa. 1:16
If one believes in Christ yet persists in sin how does he then enter the Kingdom of God unclean?
1 Cor 6:9, 1 Eph 5:5, Gal 5:19-21
Why does Christ say baptism is necessary to enter into the Kingdom of God?
John 3:5 (I believe this is the key to everything and will post in the future on this issue with many interesting sources, including Martin Luther saying baptism is essential.)
If baptism is merely an “outward expression of an inward faith” and not absolutely neces
sary for salvation why is it specifically called a “baptism for a remission of sins” or “baptism of repentance” repeatedly in the Bible?
Acts 19:3-4, Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, 8; Acts 13:24, Rom 6:4, Luke 24:47, Acts 19:4
What of the events of the Pentecost? (Peter stands up and preaches and is asked by the people what they should do? He responds: Then Peter said unto them Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38
As a side note: What about the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands?
Acts Chapter 8
Is not hearing AND “doing” required of us?
Matt 7:21,24; James 1:22
Is there even a scriptural reference that says by “faith ALONE” or “grace ALONE” we are saved?
What of “faith without works is dead”? James 2:17
Why was Paul himself told by the Lord (on the road to Damascus) to “arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”? Acts 22:16
What of Mark 16:15 where it says that those who believe AND are baptized shall be saved?
Why teach the concept of obedience if only belief is required?
Paul teaches here 2 Thess 1:8-9
Is not the obedience necessary to take advantage of Christ’s sacrifice?
Matt 26:28 and Heb 9:28-blood shed for “many” (ie those who obey) and Heb 5:9 as “author of eternal salvation UNTO ALL WHO OBEY.”
I actually came up with this list on my own and then ran across an article by John A. Tvedtnes in which he lists similar questions concerning Paul’s teachings on grace. The article is entitled “Salvation by grace alone?”
My intent of this post is not to contend, be critical of others’ beliefs, nor even claim “victory” by proving “my side” with references from the Bible. My real desire is to hear how those believe in salvation by grace alone respond to these questions that I think are fair, logical and based solely on the Bible which we share as common ground. (I did not use any references from LDS Canon) The questions are not necessarily meant to trick nor stump but to generate discussion which leads to mutual benefit and learning. Most importantly I hope any dialogue that may happen as a result of this post leads to an understanding between two groups who have more in common then one would initially think. I have found I may disagree with some of the answers I receive but I respect others beliefs and accord them the privilege to fully respond and believe as they wish. I would hope the same is reciprocated towards me.
I fully acknowledge that I am by no means an expert in theology nor an authoritative voice for neither side here presented. Despite this I think it is hard not to see that there is more than just grace alone that is necessary for salvation. There are just too many references and logical arguments that seem to say there is something in addition to grace that is necessary. While there are references to grace as a means of salvation, there is never a reference that says by grace alone we are saved. These references to grace coupled with the teachings of works, repentance, baptism etc must mean it is a combination of the two and not solely one or the other. Even Paul taught that we are saved by grace but that works are still an important aspect, though we never “earn” this grace. In the end grace is still given to us freely but there is much more required of us than just a sincere belief in Christ.
I firmly believe that Christ did provide a way for us through His infinite Atonement and we can be saved by His grace IF we live up to our end of the covenant by having faith in Jesus Christ, repenting of our sins, being baptized by immersion and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by those who have authority (see Acts 8 ) and enduring to the end of our lives faithful in keeping His commandments.
Dust-
Well thought out questions.
Love
Kate